Between Sessions with Dr. Sharon

Experiences of Marginalized Women in the Workplace with Dr. Tega Edwin

• Dr. Sharon Givens • Episode 16

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What if recognizing workplace stress could save your mental and physical health? On this episode, Dr. Sharon and Dr. Tega Edwin uncover systemic barriers that Black and Brown women face in professional environments. From lack of support and social capital to microaggressions, they explore how these factors contribute to inequities in policies and workloads, leaving many marginalized women underpaid and overworked. Dr. Edwin shares her expertise on the far-reaching impacts of these challenges on mental health and job performance, emphasizing the need for systemic change. The discussion includes the toll that chronic workplace stress can take on the body and mind and offers practical strategies to transition out of unhealthy situations, including self-care, aligning personal values, and seeking professional support.

Dr. Tega Edwin is an award-winning career development researcher, educator, and speaker. She provides consultation and training for corporations that want to leverage trauma-informed leadership to improve employee productivity, retention, and engagement. She’s the owner of Her Career Doctor, where she provides coaching to women who are stuck in soul-sucking jobs. Dr. Edwin is a licensed professional counselor, a national certified counselor, a certified trauma professional, and a certified salary negotiation facilitator.

Speaker 1:

This is Between Sessions with Dr Sharon, a podcast hosted by Dr Sharon Givens, a licensed professional counselor and certified career counselor with 20 years of experience helping individuals overcome personal and professional obstacles. Whether you're struggling with anxiety, depression or career satisfaction, this podcast provides valuable insights and practical strategies to start your journey to a more satisfying and fulfilling life and work today.

Speaker 2:

Hello, dr Edwin. Welcome to Between Sessions with Dr Sharon. I'm so excited to have you here today. I have been very inspired by the work that you are doing and the content that you're creating and sharing with us on LinkedIn as it relates to career satisfaction, and so I wanted you to come today and complete the series that I've been doing on the mistreatment of marginalized women and the workforce.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. I'm excited about the topic. I love that you're doing this series and I look forward to chatting.

Speaker 2:

Great, and so our first two speakers did an amazing job of just talking about their experiences and strategies that they can share with employers, and also some specific strategies that women can actually do to help cope when they're in those situations. I thought about you because I knew that you could help in that area as well, just based on all the great content that you have created, and so let's just jump into it and talk about from your perspective. What do you think are some systemic barriers that marginalized women face in the workplace?

Speaker 3:

Oh gosh, where do I start from? I think one of the main ones is the lack of support that can come through just the lack of social capital. And let me even start by saying, because I think, depending on the industry that you're in that phrase, marginalized women can be different, right, like, for example, in a male dominated industry, a white woman could be considered marginalized. But when I think of just the world of work in America in general, I'm thinking specifically of black and brown women. When we're having that conversation, when we say marginalized women, I'm thinking women from, you know, black and brown, racial, ethnic backgrounds, and so one thing that comes up to mind very quickly for me in terms of barriers is just that lack of support and lack of social capital. So when they don't have the relationships with people who tell them how to play the game right, like how to talk the talk, walk the walk that there is even a game that needs to be played right that can then just hold them back in their careers and hold back their growth and their trajectory. I think another one is even microaggressions. We don't talk enough about how stressful microaggressions are on wellbeing and our health, one thing that I often will have seen with my clients and I've talked about in trainings is the fact that microaggressions left unchecked can lead to trauma responses for women. Because is the fact that microaggressions left unchecked can lead to trauma responses for women? Because, when you experience a microaggression, it activates you in that moment, right, like it's a micro dose of stress that you are experiencing. When somebody makes comments like, oh, you speak good for a Black woman, or oh, you handled that presentation well for a Hispanic woman, or oh, I didn't expect that from you, and you're like, why not from me? Well, so those micro regressions left unchecked, when you're experiencing regularly, day in, day out, it fundamentally can shift a woman's physiological system and how she responds to stress and how she interacts with people at work. It can lead to her always being on guard, always scanning her environment, which can also impact performance, right, we know that stress impacts creativity, motivation, logical thinking, and so then, if performance gets impacted, then we start seeing things like the PIP, right, like the performance improvement plan, thrown in, people commenting on your behavior. Meanwhile the root of the behavior that you're complaining about was the experience that they had at work. So I just think micro aggressions is one that we can often underestimate the negative impact that it has in women.

Speaker 3:

Inequitable policies, whether formal or informal policies when we think about who gets to be in the room, who gets to make decisions, who gets to create the policies, who gets to be promoted, who gets to have a raise, how much are people being paid? So inequitable policies, I think, are a big one. We know that women get paid less. Right Like that one is already a given. I think inequitable workloads is one that we often don't talk about, where, in addition to inequitable pay, you'll often find that black and brown women are also doing more work than their partners. I've worked with quite a few clients who would tell me that when they left their job, the company had to hire two or three people to replace them in their one job that they were doing. So I was doing three people's jobs, but I was getting paid less than one person doing similar roles or doing something less than me.

Speaker 2:

And so those are some things that I think are barriers that just exist that up and things like the inequitable pay, for example, and how those policies and also practices in many organizations contribute to the marginalization of women.

Speaker 3:

And I think sometimes, depending on the industry or the field that a person is in, those policies don't get questioned, because it's how we've always done things. It's just the way it should be, it's this is how they work, so they're systemic.

Speaker 2:

You would say yes, absolutely right.

Speaker 3:

like they're just in place, they're part of the, and so they get in the way.

Speaker 2:

Interesting, interesting. Also, I think you brought a very good point about the microaggressions and how that impacts our well-being, because I don't think that people see the connection to mental health when we talk about mistreatment or microaggressions. And if you've ever experienced that, you wonder well, why am I feeling down? What is the onset of this depression? And in many cases it's because it's building, it's starting to compound and we don't even recognize it, because now there's a level of normalcy to this treatment and sometimes you don't recognize it until you go somewhere else and you're not being treated. So let's talk about that, that direct connection between how does workplace mistreatment impact the mental health and well-being?

Speaker 3:

I love this topic because it's something I love to talk about. Yes, I love that you asked that question Because I think you're right. A lot of times and I've seen this with my clients people don't make the connection. It's like, okay, I'm going to work every day over here and then, over here, I'm anxious, I'm depressed, I'm not engaged, I'm not motivated or even like I'm losing weight, I'm gaining weight, my hair is falling out, my skin is breaking out, I have ulcers, I have headaches.

Speaker 3:

One of my clients wants to talk about passing out at work because of the stress, right, and so people think like it's, this is here and that is there. I need to take better care of myself. They're doing bubble baths and candles and vacations and massages and I'm like, ok, you can do all that self-care, but if you come back from that self-care and go back to that workplace, the root issue is still there. So a lot of times people don't make the connection and the way I think about it, about it, I always say if you pause and just step back, think about it, you are spending 40 hours of your week minimum. We know that these days, most people overwork more than 40 hours. Right, you're working 40 hours minimum in a space that is inhospitable to you. There is no way that you can think that you will spend 40 hours here at work and that when you leave work, all that stress, all that anxiety just disappears and stays behind. No, you're a whole person. It comes with you. The impacts follow you into your personal life, which is why you then start experiencing those symptoms and side effects. And so that direct bridge that I the way I like to help people think about it is work.

Speaker 3:

Stress is the bridge between work and the symptoms that you're experiencing, your mental health, your mental wellbeing. And I think when we put it that way, sometimes it clicks, because people understand stress right, they understand the stress. Usually there's different kinds of stress, but usually too much stress is not good for you. And so I think when you start to realize that when you're experiencing microaggressions, when you're being oppressed, marginalized at work, that is stressful to your system, when someone is microaggressing you or you're being treated unfairly, your body goes into fight, flight, freeze, fawn response to try to keep you safe in this situation. Well, that stress response on your body has a cost. It's why you know, you feel it in your body, your hot system comes up. You're hot, you're sweating, and so when you are in that state of stress, long term, that's when you see the long term mental effects.

Speaker 3:

Because your body never had a chance to regulate, and so stress is the bridge. You're experiencing microaggression, it stresses you out, your body is activated. Chemicals, hormones, are trying to keep you safe, and because your body never regulates. Now, this is why you're always anxious, it's why you're always tired, it's why you're physically, your body is changing. It's because you are always in this stress response that is not good for your body, that stresses you out, that shifts your body's ability to even just process something as basic as food. We know that cortisol impacts weight, and so I think if people start recognizing that these things are stressful, and so when you keep going back to that workplace, you are essentially living in a perpetual state of being stressed.

Speaker 3:

Even if it's like you said, it starts to feel normal, we normalize it. It's not normal because it's good for you. It's normal because your body has learned to always be aware and be ready to fight. That doesn't make it normal. It just means you are now always in a stress response state and I want you to just talk a little bit about, then.

Speaker 2:

What do these people do Because they have financial obligations. This is where the dilemma comes into play. I have financial obligations, bills to pay. What do I do?

Speaker 3:

I think in this situation I mean first yes, start with the self-care that I mentioned. Right, take a break, but recognize that the self-care is not the solution. If you are in a workplace that is perpetually stressing you out, at some point you have to recognize maybe this is not the place. Tell themselves stories like this is all I'm good for, this is the only thing I have the skills for. I can't do anything else in my career. Nobody else will pay me this. Well, I'm being disloyal if I leave. They start telling themselves what I call these limiting career beliefs that keep them in that job. That's holding them back. So the first thing is even just recognizing that maybe I need to be somewhere else, because once you start, once you even just acknowledge that to yourself, your brain starts looking for a way out, like, until you acknowledge that your brain accepts that this is the norm. So you have to first acknowledge that you need to be somewhere else for your own health, for your own wellbeing and even for your loved ones, because your loved ones are being impacted.

Speaker 3:

I think, once you have recognized that you need to do something else, your brain will start looking for a way out. But now it's time for you to get clear about who you are, what is important to you in this season of your life, what do you enjoy doing, and then you can start doing research about the other opportunities that may be available. So I think that's the thing is like women at least I've seen this in my clients is they won't even go look for other opportunities. They'll just assume that there are no opportunities available to them and so they'll stay. But, like I said, once you acknowledge that you can do something else, then you'll start looking at roles differently. You'll start thinking about okay, what transferable skills do I have? You'll start thinking, like you said, I have bills to pay pay. Okay, what financial safety net do I need to put in place so that I can make a transition while feeling safe and secure? But if you are not even willing to start planning that exit, then it's not even going to happen. So you have to first start from there. And then I always say I think clarity and a plan are the two things you need to make a transition successfully. If you have clarity about what you're looking for and you put a plan in place, whether it's financial plan. And then what kind of roles am I gonna look for? And then job search skills. And then investing in support, if you can afford it, right, like a coach, a counselor, a strategist, investing in somebody who's a career development expert to help you.

Speaker 3:

Those are, I think, the tangible next steps you can take to essentially leave that situation. Because, ultimately, if you have been or if you are in a place where there are these systemic barriers, if you're not in a position of power like if you're not influencing the decision making, nothing's going to change. And I've heard some women say you know, I'm just waiting to see if it'll get better, and I'm always like you've been there for three years it hasn't gotten better, it's not going to get better. Stop waiting to see if it'll get better, and I'm always like you've been there for three years, it hasn't gotten better, it's not going to get better. Stop waiting to see if it's going to get better. You have all the data you need to know that it's not going to get better. It's time for you to start planning your exit.

Speaker 2:

And I think a lot of women say that because they are comfortable and they're afraid to make that change. I like what you said about clarity and treating some women that have experienced this, that have been grossly mistreated in the workplace, and I have had to do confidence building sessions before we can even move forward to think about what are my career options? What are my career options? It was really a series of rebuilding letting them know who they are again, what they're capable of, and that they have the ability to move forward and to do something different. The other part of that is letting them know that this is not normal and that they are worthy, because I think as you go through that process, your worth is slowly diminishing.

Speaker 2:

And so you have to be reminded. You have to go through that process of rebuilding that confidence and understanding that this is not my only option. And so what are some other strategic practices that mental health professionals can do to assist individuals who are experiencing this level of treatment in the workplace?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the first thing I'll say is one you said I'm just going to expand on. It is validating for them that their experiences are not normal.

Speaker 3:

You know, we said earlier how would people often ignore the impact of their work on their personal life, or like people are not making their connections, and so I think sometimes like listening to your client. When your client is saying to you, oh, I was given this role or this project and I wasn't given any support, and then they gave me a tight deadline, they're telling you the story. You, as the mental health provider, being able to say that sounds extremely stressful and that is not a normal situation, just that can be extremely validating for the client, because now here's somebody external, somebody that they see is an expert, telling them that what I'm experiencing is abnormal, can be extremely validating for the client, because now here's somebody external, somebody that they see as an expert, telling them that what I'm experiencing is abnormal. So now I don't have to start questioning myself and thinking am I just not capable? Am I just not good enough? Like no, somebody is saying I shouldn't have been in this situation.

Speaker 3:

We often underestimate the power of validating the mistreatment that our clients have experienced, and so I think that validation in itself is so powerful because it helps them see that they don't have to settle, that they can expect better for themselves. Something else would be, I think, even teaching them how to advocate for themselves. You know we throw that word around a lot and as mental health service providers.

Speaker 3:

You know we are in like advocacy is a big part of our field as counselors, right, but the average person doesn't know what advocacy looks like in practice. The average person who is just trying to put their head down, do their work and have the bills paid. They don't know what advocacy means or looks like. So how can you teach them whether it's? How do you teach them? Whether it's? How do you find out what? If there are policies in your organizations that are available to protect you, like whether it's through HR or EAP, like what can you tap into? How do you teach them how to communicate their needs with a boss? How do you teach them how to write professional emails that are helping them set boundaries? How do you teach them how to evaluate if a situation is fair or not and how to then respond?

Speaker 3:

I think that self advocacy piece is something that mental health service providers can really do it up until even role playing right, like sitting with your client and say I'm going to be your boss, I'm going to give you this last minute deadline. Let's communicate, let's practice how you're going to say you know it's not going to work Like. One thing I teach my clients is how do you get your boss to delegate for you? Right, like when you have a full plate and they tell you here's one more thing to do, then I'm like okay, then here's what you need to tell them. You know, I would love to work on that.

Speaker 3:

Here are the other three things I'm working on. Which of these would you like me to take off my plate to focus on this new task? Right, even just something as simple as that. My clients would be like I hadn't even thought to do that. I just take it on, I just keep taking more on and I'm stressed out. So I think teaching them how to advocate for themselves is important. Teaching them how to set better boundaries is also really crucial. If you are not working in emergency services, there are no urgencies in your job.

Speaker 3:

Nothing is urgent there are no urgencies in your job. Nothing is urgent. If you're not a doctor, if you're not a firefighter, if you're not a police officer, if you're not a nurse, if you're not in healthcare, nothing is an emergency. There are no urgencies in contract tech. It's not an emergency. There's no reason for you to have to be checking your email at 10 pm. Your boss can email you at 1am because that's when they're awake and ready to work. That's their business. But you shouldn't be hooked to your email at 1am responding, and you shouldn't feel stressed when you wake up in the morning and you see that email. Respond when you do.

Speaker 3:

But setting those boundaries and realizing that you're not going to get paid extra for working yourself to the bone, what are the key things that you need to achieve at work? Do your job and then back away right. There's no award for superwoman at work. There's no special award for doing all the things and so teaching clients how to set boundaries with themselves.

Speaker 3:

Because sometimes, as women who are racially and ethically marginalized, we are the ones overworking, because we've always been told you have to work twice as hard to get half as much right, like, like we think if we stop working hard, we'll look incompetent, we'll look like we don't know what we're doing, that are violating our own boundaries, because we keep pushing, pushing, pushing, so we won't be seen as less than have to overwork and work yourself to the bone. And how do you set boundaries with your own stuff and say you know what? No, I'm just going to go lay on the couch right now and it's okay. I'm just going to lay on the couch for 30 minutes and that is still productive. Right, like teaching clients how to set boundaries with themselves, with other people, I think can be really helpful.

Speaker 2:

And that's why I think in some cases, therapy can be extremely helpful, because we need to go back and unlearn some of those messages. I mean, I know I've heard that you've got to be better, You've got to do this, and we live with this ongoing pressure at work and at other areas of our life where we feel like there's no grace for us, right, and so I have to do it, and I have to do it perfect or near perfect, and so there's this consistent pressure that also impacts our well-being. But that's really, really powerful. And I just want to go back to that advocacy. And that's another area, I think, in therapy where we can look at the client and say what areas of your life do you practice advocacy or do you have experience with practicing that?

Speaker 3:

Because in many cases, our lives can be out of sorts in every area, and so sometimes, when we bring together one area, that can help us in other areas as well, yeah, and I think you know when you said that I'm thinking it's that solution focused framework, right Like where do you have this skill already in your life and can we transfer that skill into this area of your life that it's stressing you out?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Now. What can women do from your perspective to keep themselves psychologically safe in the workplace?

Speaker 3:

First one is definitely boundaries. I keep coming back to that you know I think one of the reasons why I keep coming back to that is I actually recorded a podcast episode on this recently. I was saying this to a mentee of mine recently and we were talking in the context of black women, because we're both black women. But I was telling her that, you know, black women cannot afford to have weak boundaries at work because, we don't always have, like you said, the grace to make mistakes and still be seen as capable, right.

Speaker 3:

We don't have the grace to drop the ball and still be seen as capable, right, we don't have the grace to drop the ball and still be seen as capable and effective. And when you don't have strong boundaries, what happens is you take on too much, you overwork, which then leads to those mistakes. That starts impacting your reputation at work. So you need strong boundaries to actually work properly, because when you have boundaries, that you can focus on your work and deliver top quality, excellent effort. So I can't emphasize enough the fact that you can't afford to not have strong boundaries because it impacts your work output when you don't. So that's the first thing like for you to psychologically say think about when are you working? When are you not working? When are you responding to emails? When are you not responding to emails? Delete email off your phone? When do you speak back? Based on how people talk to you and what they say, how do you learn how to respond when someone is microaggressing you and respond in a way that allows them to see that maybe I shouldn't have said that, establishing those boundaries for yourself.

Speaker 3:

I think women also need to learn how to engage in what I call it as, like, self coaching, because you know, when you're right there in the moment, you might not be able to call your therapist or call your coach to walk you through a situation, and so you need to understand, okay, in this moment. One am I like how do I know if I'm getting reactive? Two, what are the thoughts that are happening in my head, what emotions are coming up? Now? How do I replace those thoughts, those belief systems, what do I need to tell myself in this situation? To regulate and perform well, you need to engage in self-coaching regularly to help you kind of push through those belief systems, those thought processes that are keeping you thinking that you're not good enough or that you don't have what it takes, whatever it may be, keeping you thinking that you're not good enough or that you don't have what it takes, whatever it may be. Learning how to self-coach will help you even just keep your own sanity mentally right, like and sometimes self-coaching can look like okay, I'm saying no to this project, and it doesn't mean that I'm not qualified. It doesn't mean that I'm not a team player. It doesn't mean I'm good enough, it just means that I can't take that on right now and I have to be okay with that. I can't let that mean anything about my value is just where I'm at right now. So engaging in that self-coaching, I think, is helpful, yeah, yeah, I think the third thing I will say is just not neglecting.

Speaker 3:

You know we talk a lot in counseling about your protective factors, right, like the relationships, the self care, the time off you use your PTO. That's the other thing Psychologically safe use your PTO, planning a PTO around holidays so you can have like seven days off, you use your time off. But I think just tapping into relationships, healthy relationships, can be a really good protective factor also.

Speaker 2:

It's really good. I'm still going back to that self-coaching because I think another aspect of that self-coaching is it empowers the client. It helps them to build confidence that I can push through this. While I have support, I can still push through it as well. So I just had to say that I do like that. Now, one of my favorite aspects of work and life is mentorship. So how important and I think you've alluded to this in some of your other responses, but how important are mentorship and support networks for marginalized women advancing in their career.

Speaker 3:

Oh my gosh, super important, game-changingly important. Because, you know, I said in the beginning how one of the barriers that marginalized women face is not knowing that they're on a game field, right like when you're at work, there's a game to play. How you talk, how you dress, how you respond, who you liaise with, how you become visible, right like how you talk about your work. When you have mentors, sponsors, you have people who can tell you how to play the game. You have people who can speak your name in rooms that you don't have access to. You have people who can give you access to resources and opportunities that you would never have known.

Speaker 3:

They are game changingly important to advancement, because now you have someone who can tell you okay, here's how you should respond to this, or here's what's important in our job, or here's what the company values. Or we can go in a room and say she was great at this presentation, you should give her this opportunity. Or she knows how to handle this client, you should talk to her. Like, relationships will advance your career, and so I think relationships are super, super important. I think it bears saying that building those relationships is a skill in itself, and sometimes women who have been marginalized, don't know how to do that. They don't know how to find a mentor, how to find a sponsor, how to build the relationship, and so I just want to emphasize that while I'm saying it's important, I also recognize that not everyone knows how to go about cultivating those types of relationships Not everyone knows how to go about cultivating those types of relationships.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think there's another factor there that I've learned, and just by being a Black woman, it tends to be a trust factor. So I think that makes it more difficult to cultivate those relationships. When you've been in spaces where you could not trust people or that's been an issue, or people have betrayed you, I think it becomes a little more challenging to cultivate that type of mentorship and support networks because you're very cautious or even fearful, particularly if you've been mistreated and hurt in the past.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes it's hard to gauge who's for you and who's against you, and I think what you've just said is also why it's important to realize it's so. I think a lot of women don't know this, but realize when it's time to leave right like we often.

Speaker 3:

I say like it's so easy to stay in a job beyond its expiration date and like you're not being loyal, to not helping anybody by trying to be loyal, realizing when it's time to leave. Because, for example, if you're saying I'm in a place where I don't really trust the people, I don't think I can build a relationship, I don't know if they'll betray me, they'll treat me right, then you shouldn't be in that work environment, because isn't just impacting your ability to build those mentorship relationships, it's impacting your overall mental health also, because if you don't trust people, that means you're always on guard. You're always scanning to see who's coming for you, who's going to stab you in the back, who's going to betray you. So you're never actually relaxed at work, which goes back to how we started this episode. Over time, that impacts your mental well-being.

Speaker 2:

That is so true and I know that's a lot of the work that I've done with clients is learning that to trust and knowing how to move on when they're not safe. But it's not always just a seamless transition. So what are your hopes for the future regarding the treatment of marginalized women in the workplace?

Speaker 3:

let's wave that magic wand right, I'm like, first, that it will not exist. Right, like that women will not be mistreated at work, that they wouldn't feel like they always have to be on guard and protect themselves and protect their back, like that's the magic, like hope, the dream is it just doesn't exist. But I think, in a more realistic sense, it would be that there are more women in decision making roles, more women who are truly for women, because there are some women who are not for women. So more women who are actually for women in decision-making roles that can actually come in and heal workplaces right, establish policies that recognize, policies that put women in the room, policies that create equity right Across the board, that can build equitable policies, equitable workplaces.

Speaker 3:

Because I do think that, generally, while, yes, there are women who are not for women, more often than not women are aware of the plight of other women.

Speaker 3:

So they're, at the very least, more likely than men to at least question a policy, to at least question the way things are done, to at least think about does this make sense for the mother, does this make sense for the caretaker?

Speaker 3:

Does this make sense for the sibling? Right, like they're more likely to think about beyond, just the bottom line and I think those will be the main things for me is it doesn't exist. And let me back up and say even just more leaders in general, male or female, that recognize the incredible value that women add to the workplace. Because one of my values or one of my beliefs is that the world benefits when women are fulfilled at work, because I think women are inherently more inclined when they are happy and fulfilled. They spread that just people around them get the benefit of the back end of that. And so I think if we just have leaders, male and female, who recognize that a lot of workplaces are not safe for women and have a genuine desire to change that, knowing that when your employees are happy and safe, your bottom line will go up inherently, and so I think those would be my wishes for the workplace.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and one of the questions that I've asked clients is tell me what makes you okay in working in a place that's not safe and that people aren't concerned that you are not safe.

Speaker 3:

so I think you say that it makes me think I've I've said before, like if you wouldn't stay in an abusive relationship, why are you staying in a job that's mistreating you?

Speaker 3:

because it's also a relationship, whether it is a relationship, but it's a transactional one, but it's a relationship, and so if the other partner in this relationship is not treating you well, doesn't care about your safety, doesn't care about your wellbeing, doesn't care about your health, and you stay, that's problematic, and I think one thing we haven't said that I want to highlight is also recognizing that when I say things like this, I'm referring to the women who have what I call the privilege of choice in their careers, because not everybody has that privilege right.

Speaker 3:

Some people are in the job because it's all they can do. They have bills to pay, they have people to take care of, they can't choose, they can't go anywhere else. But I've worked with some women who actually have the privilege of choice. They have the financial ability to hire support, work with a therapist, to work with a coach, but they're staying because of the fear, right, the fear of doing something else, the fear of failing, the fear of not knowing what else to do. And so for me, it's when you have the privilege of choice to stay or to leave and you use that privilege to choose to stay in a place where the other person doesn't value you, you are inherently sending a message to yourself about your value.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I think another. You triggered another thought when you said relationship, that your work. I mean it's like a relationship, and I heard a speaker actually the other night that said if you are feeling unhappy, look at the relationships that you have in your life. They said it's either a person or an institution that you're connected to that's contributing to that unhappiness. And I think that's so true. When we look at the frames of our life, we're connected to people, we're connected to institutions that heavily influence us on a daily basis. So if something's off in our life, so if something's off in our life, it's usually related to people and institutions that we're connected to Absolutely. Can you give the listeners, maybe leaders and organizations? How can they contribute to creating a more supportive work environment for marginalized women? So when we think about somebody listening from HR leaders, small business owners, what can they?

Speaker 3:

do to contribute. Examine policies with the lens of who's benefiting and who's not benefiting from this policy. Be intentional about scanning your environment and auditing your policies to see who is being marginalized by this policy. Who is this going to affect negatively? Who is not going to benefit? If we put this policy in place, Then the last thing I will say is speak up when you see inequities, especially if you already have a seat at the table. Whatever this magical table is that we always talk about, right, Sit at the table.

Speaker 3:

Speak up when you see inequities especially if you already have a seat at the table. Whatever this magical table is that we always talk about, right, get up to the table, speak up when you see the inequity. There's a famous quote that says something like the only I'm paraphrasing, but something like the only thing evil needs to thrive is for good to do nothing. Right, like something along those lines. It's like when you don't speak, you are essentially putting your stamp of approval on the mistreatment of people, right, like when you don't question it, when you don't say anything you don't have, like that is your site. That's a silent approval, your silent acquiescence that it is okay for them to be treated this way, it is okay for them to not have opportunities, it's okay for them to be mistreated.

Speaker 3:

So if you are truly saying you want to change the experiences of the women at your workplace, speak up. And speaking up doesn't always have to mean you have the answers. Sometimes just asking a question can help shift things. Or like, come into your table and saying hold on, we put this policy in place, but how does that work for our employees, who are blank and now people have to think and decide. Are we gonna leave it that way, knowing that it's inequitable?

Speaker 2:

or are we going to find a solution? So those would be the things that I would share. Very good, I just want to say thank you, and this has been so insightful and enrich this conversation. I feel certain that our listeners will gain a lot of good information that they can utilize as leaders. But, more importantly, I'm hoping that women will benefit from this and understand that they don't have to stay in environments that are not safe, and that this was validating, maybe, for someone who's going through this process, and also that it's okay to reach out to a coach or counselor or career development expert to help them through this process thank you for having me and I agree what you said is hopefully people will see women will see that they don't have to settle in workplaces that are mistreating them.

Speaker 3:

My hope for every woman I come across is that she does fulfilling work in a workplace that values her, because it just changes your quality of life. Here's what I would leave people with is recognizing that you can't have life satisfaction without career satisfaction, so it's important that you make wise career choices so that you can have the life that you desire Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Will you promise to come back again, maybe?

Speaker 3:

For sure, if you invite me. It was a pleasure speaking with you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Dr Edwards.